November 2, 2024 – Jim Puplava interviews Scott Chaverri, CEO of Mito Red Light, who left a successful career in finance to explore the transformative potential of red light therapy, which continues to grow in use. Together, they dive into the science behind this non-invasive treatment, which enhances mitochondrial function to support cellular health and longevity. The discussion covers a wide range of potential therapeutic benefits, including improved sleep, pain management, skin rejuvenation, muscle recovery, and even hair growth. Chaverri shares practical tips on selecting the right device—whether a panel, portable unit, or full-coverage bed—and how to measure light intensity and dosage for optimal results. With its growing popularity and scientific backing, this episode offers a comprehensive guide to incorporating red light therapy into your wellness routine.
Note: Any information discussed in today's podcast or presented below is not intended as medical advice and should not be considered a substitute for the guidance provided by a licensed healthcare professional.
Find out more about Mito Red Light by going to Mito Red Light | Red Light Therapy Devices for your Home
Related links and resources:
- What Is Red and Near Infrared (NIR) Light Therapy?
- Red Light Therapy Wavelength: What Wavelengths Works Best?
- Does Red Light Therapy Produce Melatonin?
- Red Light Therapy and Vitamin D: Everything To Know
- Can Red Light Therapy Affect Brain Waves?
- Infrared Sauna vs. Red Light Therapy
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Transcript
Jim Puplava:
Well, one of the growing therapies for various ailments today is red light therapy. It’s used whether it’s in dermatological work or just feeling better or even for pain. And that’s the discussion of today’s topic. We are going to be speaking with Scott Chaverri. He’s CEO and founder of Mito Red Light. Scott, before we begin and talk about the benefits of red light, why don’t you tell our listeners: how did you go from, let’s say, Wall Street to red light therapy? What led you there?
Scott Chaverri:
Well, my own health challenges are, you know, primarily what led me there. I struggled with depression and insomnia. And so, in an effort to try to solve for those, I investigated many things. And then on the topic of insomnia in particular, I realized that it was my lighting environment that was really causing me to have trouble falling asleep. You know, you rationalize these things in your mind. You tell yourself that it must be like I’m the type of person that has an overactive mind, you know, and it’s that I’m just that type of person. And then you learn to deal with it. But when I discovered that it was actually just the bright lights that I was having on past sunset that were really disrupting my ability to fall asleep, and I switched to dimly lit amber and red lights in the evening and wearing glasses that blocked, you know, the blue light from entering my eyes, something I struggled with for a long time that really had a negative impact on my life completely resolved. My sleep got so much better.
You start going down the rabbit hole of light and health. And then I discovered red and near-infrared light and its potential therapeutic applications. So, between the combination of avoiding blue light in the evening and supplementing with red light and near-infrared light during the day, my sleep was transformed, and my life was transformed, frankly, because when you get good sleep, I mean, good things can happen. You can actually perform better during the day instead of dragging and relying on caffeine.
Jim Puplava:
During the day, you used it for your own health, and that led you to start the company.
Scott Chaverri:
Yes, mainly I was just a typical curious biohacker, if you will, and I purchased a device. I wanted more coverage. And when I went out into the marketplace to find something that was larger, I actually got sticker shock. I couldn’t believe how expensive they were. This was 2018. And I was like, I wonder if we can design products that, you know, give you the amount of light that you want but, you know, at a lower cost. And that was the genesis for the company. It just seemed like there was space to make a high-quality product without charging an arm and a leg.
And that’s how we started—very basic devices, but ones that were designed in a way to execute on what matters, which is a certain amount of red and near-infrared light at the right wavelengths, at the right power density, without a lot of bells and whistles. Now, we’ve expanded our product portfolio immensely over the past six years. We still have entry-level, low-cost products. We’ve added more wavelengths, more features. But at the end of the day, our goal is to have a wide selection—or the widest selection in the space. So whatever your use case or your budget, we want to have a solution for you.
Jim Puplava:
Now, there are various devices—there are red light beds, which can be quite expensive. There are red light panels, and there are red light portables I call handhelds. So explain the different devices and how they are used. Because when I first was exposed to red light, it was a red light panel. And so that’s what I think of when I think of red light—initially, I thought of panels.
Scott Chaverri:
I do like panels just because of their versatility and usability. You know, I mean, you can hang a panel on the back of a door, it doesn’t take up a lot of space, and they last forever. You know, if properly cared for, the panels should last many, many years. That’s one of the great things about LEDs—energy efficiency and just longevity. So I like the panels.
But, you know, there is a use case for portable or flexible devices if that’s how you’re going to use it. So my second piece of advice is, you know, get the device that you actually think you’re going to use. If you buy even a small, portable device and you’re going to use it while you’re laying on the couch watching TV in the evening, I’ll take that over you not using it. Right? Even though I would say, generally speaking, get the largest panel you can afford in your budget and try to shine the light on as much surface area as you can. That would be my general guidance.
But if you’re not actually going to adopt that into your routine and you’re more likely to use a smaller device because it’s more convenient, then get that. So it’s more about actually using it. Generally speaking, I do think 99.9% of the population will benefit from shining red and near-infrared light onto as much surface area of the body as possible.
So, if budget is no object and you have plenty of space in your home, go ahead and get a bed, right, and saturate every square inch of the body. If you have space constraints, a panel is great. Or if you just want something that’s super easy to use, then a portable device maybe fits the bill. Personally, I use all form factors. Here in the office, we have a bed. At home, I have a giant panel sandwich that I stand in front of. And then I do break out the portable device on days that I, for whatever reason, don’t get to use the others but still want to spend time with my kids. So I’ll use the portable device around my body while I’m kind of playing with the kids in the evening.
Jim Puplava:
Yeah, I use your panel—the one that’s a little over six feet. We attach it to a wall, and then in the morning, one of the first things I start with is your helmet.
Scott Chaverri:
Yes. So is it the brain helmet or the hair helmet?
Jim Puplava:
It’s the brain.
Scott Chaverri:
All right. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, I was using the hair helmet for a while, and I’m switching to the brain exclusively to see if it will actually also help with the hair. I’m doing a little N equals one experiment because most of the data on hair is with red lasers. But in theory, the brain helmet, which uses near-infrared LEDs, should also benefit the hair follicle. So I’m doing a little N equals one with the brain helmet.
Jim Puplava:
So when you take a look at this, we’ve seen red light being picked up—it’s becoming more mainstream. You’ve got Dr. Attia talking about it. You’ve got Dr. Huberman on his podcast. We’ve known that dermatologists have used red light for things like wrinkles, lines in the face. Any other applications of red light? I know, like, I have a friend who uses it for pain.
Scott Chaverri:
Well, that’s one of the amazing things about red and near-infrared light—it essentially works at the level of the mitochondria, hence the name of the company. If a cell has a mitochondria, it has the potential to benefit from exposure to red and near-infrared light because it’s helping the mitochondria make energy. To the extent that the cells function better, the number of applications is essentially limitless—whether it’s hair, skin, muscle recovery, wound healing, or even sleep.
The sleep story is a little bit different in that the nuts and bolts of it are that red and near-infrared light exposure increases mitochondrial activity and also increases reactive oxygen species. As a downstream effect, this boosts melatonin production. The sleep story is really interesting to me because I think we’ve all experienced this: if you spend a lot of time outside—say, a day at the beach—you sleep so much better afterward. I think that’s largely driven by the fact that you’re getting a really large dose of near-infrared light into the body when you’re out in the sun all day, and you’re increasing that reservoir of melatonin in the body.
Better sleep has downstream effects for everything else. Like I mentioned earlier, when you’re sleeping better, your body is functioning better because that’s when you’re supposed to repair from the rigors of the day. Restorative sleep impacts brain health, recovery from exercise, and so many other things. So, indirectly, red and near-infrared light can be a side benefit for improving sleep, which then cascades into better overall health.
Jim Puplava:
Are there any protocols that have been published or written about in terms of red light? You have red light, then you have far-infrared red light. And how close should you stand to the panel? How close should it be to the body? How long? Are there any protocols for this?
Scott Chaverri:
Generally speaking, the current data suggests you want the right intensity and the right duration. Intensity is measured in milliwatts per square centimeter, and generally, you want between 10 milliwatts per square centimeter up to about 100 milliwatts per square centimeter. That’s the range of intensity that has been shown to have a therapeutic effect. If you go below 10, it’s just too weak to do anything. It’s like putting a frozen turkey out on the counter at room temperature—it’s just not going to move the needle. But you also don’t want the intensity to be too high either, where it could cause damage.
So, 10 milliwatts to 100 milliwatts is the sweet spot, and that’s equivalent to about 0.6 joules to 6 joules per square centimeter. Our devices are designed to fall within this therapeutic range. For example, our portable devices are a little smaller and deliver closer to two joules per square centimeter, while our larger panels deliver closer to four joules per square centimeter at the recommended usage distance.
In terms of duration, you generally want somewhere between 10 to 60 joules of delivered energy in a session. For example, if you’re using a panel that delivers three joules per square centimeter, that would mean a session of three to 20 minutes, depending on what you’re targeting. The skin usually requires less energy, while muscle or deeper tissues, such as bone, require more. Sensitive areas, like the eyes or thyroid, might only need a couple of minutes, while injuries or deep tissue issues might require longer sessions.
Jim Puplava:
Now, in terms of distance, like if you’re standing in front of a panel, I’ve heard that if you want to affect the skin, you should be 12 to 18 inches away from the panel. If you want to work on the inside of your body, like using infrared, it’s more like six inches.
Scott Chaverri:
Right. That’s the guidance we give, and it’s based on the power intensity of our lights. The closer you are, the higher the intensity, which means deeper penetration. If your goal is just skin health, you can stand further away, as the light only needs to penetrate a couple of millimeters. But if you’re targeting deeper tissues, such as muscle or bone, being closer to the panel can make a difference.
Distance is essentially a way to dial the intensity up or down. For example, if you’re concerned about skin, you can stand further away, but you can also be closer and simply reduce the session time. Let’s say you’re standing six inches away—in that case, you might only need six to eight minutes. If you’re 18 inches away, you’d need closer to 10 minutes to achieve the same therapeutic effect. It’s all about balancing intensity and duration to stay within that therapeutic range of 10 to 100 milliwatts per square centimeter.
Jim Puplava:
Can you overdo red light? I’ve heard there are some limitations and that it starts to lose effectiveness if you do it too often or for too long.
Scott Chaverri:
Using it as we recommend, it’s highly unlikely that you would overdo it, especially considering that, in my view, just about every modern human is massively deficient in red and near-infrared light due to the amount of time we spend indoors. However, our devices are powerful, and you can think of red light therapy like exercise—it’s a stressor.
Doing a 10-minute high-intensity interval workout is great, but doing that same workout five or six times a day would wear your body down. The same principle applies here. There’s only so much light that your cells can use in one session. Repeatedly stressing the body can negate the benefits, so you’re looking for a “Goldilocks” zone—not too much, not too little. For most people, 10 to 20 minutes a day, four to six times a week, is ideal, depending on the use case and individual needs.
Jim Puplava:
Let’s say you don’t have any ailments, but you just want to be healthy and get some of the effects. What would you recommend? Would it be 10 minutes a day with a panel? What device would you be using?
Scott Chaverri:
Well, I can share what I use. I use a bed, and I’m actually probably going to jump into it as soon as we’re done here. I do 10 minutes when I use it, so I’m getting full front and back coverage—every square inch. At home, sometimes in the morning, I use my panel setup, which is also front and back coverage, 10 minutes per side. I’m usually about 12 inches away from each panel, and I’m doing head-to-toe coverage.
Generally, I recommend getting the largest panel or device you can afford within your budget and trying to shine the light on as much surface area of the body as possible. If you have a smaller budget, you can still accomplish what I do with a 36-inch or 43-inch panel. But in that case, you’d need to spend about 10 minutes on the front of your body, 10 minutes on the back, and possibly reposition the panel to target different parts of the body. It’s just more of a time investment.
For example, you have the six-footer, so you can do the front of your body for maybe eight minutes, turn around, do the back for another eight minutes, and you’re done. So, the general guidance is to get the largest light you can within your budget, shine it on as much surface area as possible, and try to do about 10 minutes per body part.
Jim Puplava:
Do you see this becoming more and more mainstream as more studies are done on the impact of red light therapy?
Scott Chaverri:
I do. Having been in the business for almost six years now, I’ve seen a lot of change, and mostly for the better. I have to say that the quality of devices has improved significantly. I’d like to think that we’ve had a small part in that by raising the bar and setting standards for the industry. For example, we were one of the first companies to do independent testing, and now there are a few other companies doing it, which I think is a good sign.
Like you mentioned, we now have smart people like Dr. Peter Attia and Dr. Andrew Huberman talking about it, which is helping bring red light therapy into the mainstream. It should be mainstream because, at its core, all we’re talking about is supplementing light exposure in a way that’s fundamental to human health.
There are two stories here—the macro and the micro. The macro story is that we spend so much time indoors. Unless you’re someone who works outside all day, like a UPS driver or landscaper, you’re probably deficient in near-infrared light. Devices like ours help correct that deficiency.
Then there’s the micro story, which is the mitochondrial aspect. We now understand some of the mechanisms by which red and near-infrared light help cells perform better. When you combine those two things—the macro deficiency and the micro-level cellular benefits—it becomes clear that red light therapy is a no-brainer.
And let’s not forget, it’s also very safe. Our devices focus on the safest parts of the solar spectrum. There’s no ultraviolet light, which we know can cause damage, and no far-infrared light, which generates heat in the body. We’ve essentially removed the harmful parts of sunlight and kept the beneficial wavelengths. I do think red light therapy will continue to become more mainstream.
My futuristic vision is that everyone will have a light pod in their home. It’ll scan you and deliver the right wavelengths of light—not just red and near-infrared, but also UV for vitamin D, if needed. If you have an inflamed area, like an elbow from playing tennis, it could target specific spots with more light. That’s where I see this going: precision medicine using light to optimize health every day.
Jim Puplava:
How far away do you think we are from seeing that?
Scott Chaverri:
Well, I’d say the LED technology has come a long way, but the harder part of what I just described would probably be the diagnostic side. The ability to scan the body in real time to understand what’s happening at a cellular level is still a challenge. I’m not super fluent in that area, but I know that some of the blood diagnostics coming out are pretty amazing.
Even on the LED side, we still face some challenges. For example, I invested in a company called Energy (spelled E-N-Y-R-G-Y). They make a narrow-band UVB device primarily for vitamin D production. It’s an amazing product—I have one in my office and one at home—but the engineering hurdles they had to overcome were remarkable. Narrow-band UVB LEDs get very hot, and they had to stabilize the light output so it wouldn’t drop off or become erratic during use. That was a significant engineering feat.
To scale that kind of technology into something like my futuristic light pod would take time. I’d estimate we’re about 15 years away from seeing it fully realized. That said, we can piece together solutions in the meantime. For example, I don’t have real-time diagnostics, but I do regular blood testing. I use my red light bed, and then I jump right into the Energy UVB lamp afterward. It’s my own version of a precision approach—an N equals one experiment—and it works for me.
Jim Puplava:
Do you see the day when Medicare might cover some of this?
Scott Chaverri:
I hope so. We’ve already gotten a lot of our devices approved for HSA and FSA accounts, which means people can use tax-free dollars to purchase them. It’s a built-in discount, which is great. This acknowledges that there are legitimate use cases for these devices, whether it’s for skin health, acne, or other conditions.
I also think products like the UVB lamp have a lot of potential. Vitamin D deficiency is a significant problem, largely because we’re sunlight deficient. That product isn’t ours, but I feel strongly about it. For example, in my own N equals one experiment, my vitamin D levels went from 37 to 78 using the lamp. I’m careful not to make claims, but we know that UVB light triggers vitamin D synthesis in the body.
Devices like these should be more accessible, especially if we want a medical system that supports people’s health. Sunlight and light exposure are fundamental to human health, so making these devices more readily available would be a step in the right direction.
Jim Puplava:
Scott, as we close, tell our listeners about your site. And since we’re in the Christmas season, I believe you’re running some Black Friday specials as well.
Scott Chaverri:
We are. The site is mitoredlight.com—that’s M-I-T-O-R-E-D-L-I-G-H-T dot com. We’ve got 25% off some of our products, like the therapy belt, the MitoPro Mobile, the MitoHydro hydrogen bottle, and the Pets Pad. The Pets Pad has been an incredible product. We have a video on our site about a woman who used it on her dog, who was struggling to walk. After using the pad, the dog started walking again, and the story is just amazing.
We also have $75 off our MitoPro 300X tabletop panel. Demand has been through the roof, so we’re backordered on it, but we are honoring the sale through tonight. And this year, we’re doing something fun—we’re calling it “12 Days of Mito.” Starting next week, we’ll have flash sales on different products each day. If you sign up for our email list, we’ll send you the daily announcements, and maybe the product you’re interested in will go on sale.
Jim Puplava:
You know, in just a couple of minutes, I do want to bring up the hydrogen water because I use that every single day with my workouts.
Scott Chaverri:
Awesome. I was skeptical at first, but after researching it, I’m convinced. There’s a great site called hydrogenstudies.com that dives into the science. What the hydrogen bottle does is use electrolysis to break apart water (H₂O), releasing free hydrogen gas. When you drink the water, the hydrogen gas dissolves into your system, passes through mucous membranes, and enters your bloodstream.
One of the most damaging free radicals in the body is the hydroxyl radical (OH). When OH meets free hydrogen (H), it turns back into water (H₂O), neutralizing the harmful effects. The mechanism is simple, but the results are promising. Studies show benefits for exercise recovery and managing oxidative stress.
Jim Puplava:
And it’s a lot cheaper too because hydrogen-infused water can get pretty expensive. With the bottle, you can make your own.
Scott Chaverri:
Exactly. I used to buy tablets, but you end up spending money every month. With the hydrogen bottle, you can just run it for five to 10 minutes and have a high dose of hydrogen water. We’re proud of the bottle—it’s not our core competency, but we spent a lot of time refining it and testing it in labs to ensure high performance. I use it almost every day, usually right after my red light session. The red light creates a little oxidative stress, so I pair it with the hydrogen water to balance things out.
Jim Puplava:
Yeah, I use it as part of the superhuman protocol: PEMF, red light, and then my workouts. That’s when I drink the hydrogen water. Well, listen, Scott, give out your website one more time as we close.
Scott Chaverri:
Sure, it’s mitoredlight.com.
Jim Puplava:
All right, well, happy holidays to you, and thanks for coming on the program again.
